Unknown Speaker 0:02
Good morning, everyone. Thursday, June 2. Welcome to 30 minutes with Spyglass lending. We have with us Lori shires, owner of brain Chow coaching a fellow San Fernando Valley. You're gonna see I'm in Valley village. We don't live that far apart, though. I'm in Sherman Oaks right now. Welcome to the show. How are you, Laurie?
Unknown Speaker 0:21
Thank you. Thank you. I'm great. I'm great. Happy Thursday.
Unknown Speaker 0:24
Happy Thursday to you. We don't say that enough to each other. It's always like a happy Friday or Happy Monday. I don't know why Thursday gets pushed to the side. But
Unknown Speaker 0:31
I mean, why not celebrate a Thursday?
Unknown Speaker 0:34
Absolutely. Celebrate every day, right? Yeah, it's all good. Happy to be here.
Unknown Speaker 0:39
Unknown Speaker 0:41
So tell us what is going on with you? What do you know? It's 11 o'clock. What would you otherwise be doing? I'm gonna put like right to it. We're getting into it.
Unknown Speaker 0:49
I usually have clients at 11 o'clock actually and move to client today so that I can be with you. But my mornings are usually a combination of doing some writing and then moving into one on one with coaching clients.
Unknown Speaker 1:03
Personal journaling, you reading a book, you copywriting what do we?
Unknown Speaker 1:06
Yes, I do. I do a little of everything. I like to start my day with just, you know, the old fashion artists way like three pages stream of consciousness journaling, kind of gets the cobwebs out. And
Unknown Speaker 1:20
by the way, are we talking like smoke? I don't mean interrupt, but I'm talking like small notebook here, like sizable spiral. Oh, no, no. Oh, yeah. No, that's, that's a good one. Yes. I have some diagrams in there to what it looked like there are a few diagrams in there as well. Maybe it's
Unknown Speaker 1:36
literally okay. Because sometimes we don't think in words, sometimes we think in pictures, right? Yeah. So yes, we do. I mean, Joan Didion said, I write to know what I think. And I feel a lot like that, too. Sometimes I don't know what's going on with me until I write it out. And so, best case scenario, I wake up, I write, I do the three pages, then I go for a run, then, you know, occasionally I'll shower after that. And then I'll get on with my day and get into like, whatever I'm writing, depending on the day, and then client work.
Unknown Speaker 2:09
Have you? I mean, this is every day, are you doing this at least seven days a week? Or is it more just during the week, business hours,
Unknown Speaker 2:14
kind of fluid, and I allow it to be I don't want to get rigid ever around the process. So that's like a good day for me. And then Sunday's like my running partner, my road wife, I call her, um, she had to meet early. And so we got up early, and they ran before I did anything. And so I you know, I can flip flop, but it's sort of like There are ingredients for a great day for me. And they usually include some kind of movement, some kind of meditation, some kind of writing, and then also a made bed. I don't know if you know, but that's like the secret to a good day.
Unknown Speaker 2:47
I mean, you just hit all four quadrants of our mental health year of how we should you can journal a little bit, get the thoughts out, get the gratification, right in life, do the exercise, as it were, by the way, how many miles are you up to? I mean, are you training for something? Or is it just like, let's hit two, three?
Unknown Speaker 3:04
I mean, I have done a 11 marathons in my day. And I'm sorry, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 3:13
Any of them the same? Or have you done 11? Different marathons? Oh, no.
Unknown Speaker 3:17
11 different ones? A few a few a few times. But you know, 11 different.
Unknown Speaker 3:22
Where was where was the coolest one? Boston,
Unknown Speaker 3:26
I qualified for Boston. And this was really cool. So okay, so for going here, my first marathon became this thing. I did it in Chicago, and it was 2007. And I was hot. It was like a record hot marathon day. And I think somebody died that day, because it was so so hot. And they were not prepared with the water stations. And I was running and I had been training and I was running as fast as I could go. And I told myself if I can finish this, in under four hours, I will never ever have to do this again. And that was the bargain I made with myself. And I made it in four minutes and two, four hours in two minutes. And I was like, Okay, well clearly. Now I have to do it again. And
Unknown Speaker 4:13
on purpose was that something maybe subconsciously No.
Unknown Speaker 4:18
I was going for it. But I also didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't know that marathons can be a lot more pleasurable than that one. It was brutally hard. So that year I did four I did four marathons I just got I was in such good shape. I just got a little addicted. And every few months I did it and so at the end of that year, I went back and I did Chicago again. And I did it two weeks before my husband and I got on the plane to Thailand to adopt our baby boy and it was like the the book end of an incredible year like my gestation my my pregnancy was To like running, and and then we went to Thailand and we adopted our son. And we came home and to keep myself balanced, I would still run as much as I could. But during that year, I had qualified for Boston. And so that next year that next, what is it? I think it's April, the whole family, we went to Boston and my husband had a little boy, and like in a backpack, and they called me to all the areas and it was just it was it was an incredible, incredible peak experience.
Unknown Speaker 5:30
This is amazing. You were on the runner's high. And then two weeks later flew all the way to Thailand. And as you mentioned it up your son, do you have just one son now?
Unknown Speaker 5:38
Yes. How old? He's almost 15. Aaron. I know you have kids. It goes so fast. Right? Like, so?
Unknown Speaker 5:49
Three, three children, right. And one of them's almost five. It's like, where did where did it go? And yours? As you said, 15. Turn around. And he's giving you a tough time in high school. Getting started? Where's he go? By the way? What what part of that is he also is a Studio City or
Unknown Speaker 6:05
so he? Yeah, he goes to Walter Reed Middle School. He's in a program. Yeah, that's great. And he's finishing in a week. And then when he finishes, we move, we're moving out deeper into the vowel into West Hills.
Unknown Speaker 6:20
I think we spoke about that before. Again, part of the reason we're having you on today, right? This being a real estate related show adjacent show if I could put it in quotes work. Let's talk about that before we circle back, and we're going to talk more about brainchild coaching, but you are so you're moving you so you've already closed the property or you're still looking.
Unknown Speaker 6:39
So we closed and we've had the world's longest escrow. It's been months. I mean, it's in part of the reason why I think the previous owners of this house chose us because they have multiple multiple offers was because we said fine stay till middle of June or early June because they had a son who have a son who they wanted to finish the school year out with him where he was. And so we were fine with that. I think we closed at the end of April. And so it's been like, you know, it's like a band aid being slowly pulled. It just ready to go.
Unknown Speaker 7:14
Right. And this is interesting. So you you closed? end of April. Tell me again, you said you were moving when.
Unknown Speaker 7:21
So we are now moving July 1, but the family over there moves next Monday. So we're gonna start doing a little bit of work and moving some things in and then we'll actually like officially move in the beginning of July.
Unknown Speaker 7:33
Got it? And where you're living now this is are you are you currently renting? Or did you end up selling your place as well?
Unknown Speaker 7:42
So originally, we were going to keep our place. Okay. And and that's what I wanted to do and like rent it out. And then the renter fell through. And a developer swooped in. Yeah. And I, you know, I was hoping that once we put our house on the market that we'd have like a nice little family living here. We've been here 20 years or so memories in this house and like these walls have our DNA somehow that sounds really gross. But
Unknown Speaker 8:13
I think the audience know what you mean.
Unknown Speaker 8:15
They feel us we feel them. And there's been so much here and so much history is where my son grew up. And like, I just was really sad to let it go to a developer developer. But truly, that was the one offer it was over asking. They made it really easy for us. And, and they let us have this long escrow. So
Unknown Speaker 8:38
maybe they'll keep everything intact and just do a light cut. No, we
Unknown Speaker 8:42
both know, we know what they're doing. I actually was like, I have a renter for you. I think you're gonna you guys can rent if you want to do that. And they said, No, we have plans. I guess there is a house whose plans have already been pushed through the building department. And they're going to do an identical version here, of course, and so they can push the plans through more quickly. And what I've been told by our now landlady, which is so weird, by the way to live in your own house, I have 20 years and have have a landlady. Suddenly, she said that they're going to start demo in about three months.
Unknown Speaker 9:19
Yeah. So that I mean, that'll happen very quickly, they're gonna go get those plans and permits or you know, oftentimes developers will just demo because it's, it's better if they're not going to rent the property out it's a liability to have the standing structure there. Oddly enough, it's better for them ultimately to do that if they have their financing in place if they have everything ready to go whether they're paying cash or however it is, the lender might not love that they're doing that unless they're going to start building soon but it's an it's interesting because they're looking at that and and saying, well, the longer it sits there anything could happen to the house or I could have a squatter move in so I'd rather raise the property going. So
Unknown Speaker 9:55
I guess I mean, yeah, they have the they have their plan.
Unknown Speaker 10:00
The years but they close and you're renting back to them. Yeah. Which is interesting too. Because, you know, from a real estate investment perspective, they're playing the game that everything's cool with you, you know, you're going to close on that of the house, and you're absolutely going to leave and no problem. I mean, a lot of developers would want it delivered vacant, right, with no issues or concern that you're going to fight them after the fact.
Unknown Speaker 10:23
Well, I suppose. And we wouldn't have agreed to it. So it was
Unknown Speaker 10:28
if you had, and you hear that all the time as well, right. You know, it's got to be on your terms. You're the seller, it's your property, and the developer wants it bad enough. They're, they're going to trust you and your word and what you're going to do so yeah, about the property that it's worth it to them to take the risk?
Unknown Speaker 10:43
Yeah, it's, I guess it's calculated risk. And I actually have a question for you about this. Because when I found out that they were going to demo the property, I was thinking about the our environment with that, and sustainability in this house was built in 1938. This little jewel, I mean, the fact that they're knocking it down, and I have so many feelings about that, obviously, I've already said that. But the other piece of it is like just destroying it. And putting all this thing into the our whole house into a landfill and not reusing anything is it's heartbreaking. And it does not make sense for construction to keep doing things the way that they're doing it. And so I started doing some research and discovered there's something called deconstruction, which you may be familiar with, but I wasn't
Unknown Speaker 11:27
enlightened, I feel like I've heard the term but you'll probably know a lot more than me.
Unknown Speaker 11:32
So what it is, is taking the house apart intentionally and carefully so that the pieces of it can be that are salvageable can be reused. And like in a house that was built in 1938, obviously, building is really, really different. Now codes are really different. Now structures are different. And so there's a lot of useful materials that builders could could, you know, reuse into a new property or, or even reinforce an existing property. And so there are companies that do deconstruction, the problem is that it takes three times as long, it's twice as expensive. And so these builders who are trying to put things up in three months, they're you know, they're they're not saying yes to that, but there's a lower impact, easier version of that, that has been done through Habitat for Humanity through their restore project. And what Restore is, as far as I understand it, is that they will take donated materials from your house, and then they'll use it to build the houses that they're building for people in need. And so, like, what I've offered this landlady, this company now is to bring a Handyman in here and like take apart the pieces so that they can, you know, donate them to restore. So the things in here that are useful can be given a second life, whether or not they take me up on that remains to be seen.
Unknown Speaker 12:54
This is fascinating, did not know about this did not know about what the Habitat for Humanity is doing. Tell me again, what what was the name of the program, so we can talk
Unknown Speaker 13:02
more. So we restore, restore, like the word restore, but it's restore. But what restore does, I think, in some cases is they sell the materials and the money made goes towards building the houses. And in other cases, the actual materials are what gets reused by them.
Unknown Speaker 13:24
Okay. Okay, and how would they incentivize the new developer to take them up on what you want them to do? What
Unknown Speaker 13:34
this is a question. And this is like, this is so interesting to me, I don't know if this is a new path for me, or what I'm just I'm still feeling passionate about it. But I know that there are some tax credits that developers can be given when they use one of these processes. But in conversations with this developer, it just sounds like it's really far away from them. actualizing it like whether it's the money or the amount of time it takes, it doesn't fit into the current paradigm of how the builders operate. So it's, I mean, it's truly like, I think, very ripe for a paradigm shift so that we can make this easy for the people who are building houses instead of making it so complicated. Like right now, it's really hard.
Unknown Speaker 14:18
Like, too often the case you hear it through LA dBs, and the red tape and the bureaucracy. Right, right. I mean, if there's any way to your point to bridge that gap, and be able to bring those two things together would be incredible, because I'm sure there are a lot of developers who would say yes, I mean, you know, some of them just had a good heart or wanting to do it, right. And a lot of them do feel that way. No question about it, but others Money Talks, right. So it still has to not eat into their bottom line or cut into their time. Right.
Unknown Speaker 14:45
And if there was a tax credit or some kind of benefit that equalized it a little bit and incentivize them even. It'd be great. I just it's so it's so much that we're doing every time they knock one of these houses down. It's so much material that's getting just put back into the earth and not in a healthy way.
Unknown Speaker 15:02
It certainly, yeah, absolutely. That happens every time. And not only that, but I think a lot of investors, developers, especially, you know, they have taken a lot of heat over the past decade, especially for the rise in equity. And everybody's concerned that the younger generations can't afford housing. And the spike in equity, it's, it's the investors fault. I mean, all the way from the large companies who buy and own rental real estate, you know, there's massive, massive, massive companies, you know, Zillow included, but all the way down to the the mom and pop investor who everybody looks at them, like they're the villain, unfortunately, you know, and, you know, sometimes fair, but more often than not, not fair, but this this, if they could otherwise, use this program another way,
Unknown Speaker 15:49
the builder, certainly good guy, and doing the right thing and doing the right thing for the environment. And frankly, as a homeowner, like doing the right thing for the previous owner, I would feel so much better, knowing that the things in this house are being given a second life gives me peace. And I know I'm not alone, I can't be alone in that
Unknown Speaker 16:10
mission, change the name of the program to Second Life, that internet thing and it was one of those things,
Unknown Speaker 16:20
it definitely was, you know, as part of a program that was alright, but then ultimately you Yes, I mean, it is happening, you are getting the app developer and you're moving on. And you're going to use as you mentioned, you go into West Hills, why to move west, tell us again, why you're going that way.
Unknown Speaker 16:35
So, I mean, I think there are a lot of little reasons that add up to the big reason, which is that it was just really time for a change. This neighborhood is great, in a lot of ways and changing and others, it feels busier and less safe right here. I mean, my my boy has never really been able to just walk freely and be, you know, be able to not look over his shoulder because you know, what's going on in the neighborhood. That sounds so ominous. But I think crime is moving in a little bit. And I really during the pandemic, I was starting to feel so claustrophobic in this little house, we were all working at home, my husband's a therapist, I'm a coach and a writer. And so we were both home all the time seeing people talking to people. And I look out my window at the greenery. And that was great. But I really wanted to look beyond the wall and see a view. And so we have a nice little place. It's pretty really pretty actually, with a view. It's quiet, it's safe. And I feel like I'm 1000 years old saying all that, but what if
Unknown Speaker 17:45
it's honest, right, and you're not certainly alone and what's going on out there. I mean, you know, I am right down the road from essentially in Valley village. And these these pockets do city Valley village especially were known as quote unquote, the suburbs of Los Angeles for a long time. And that's where you would go and and be able to have this this peace of mind and families can can feel good about it. And as you mentioned, there is a lot seeping in that is is questionable. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, you're taking a pretty big jaunt West, because well, I mean, West Hills is not, you know, obviously, it's not just five or 10 minutes up the one on one, it's
Unknown Speaker 18:23
we did not want to be that far. It just It was like one of those things where we started realizing if we wanted to get anything that we would truly love to live in, we have to move further out. And so we're like, well go as far as Woodland Hills, south and Boulevard be you know, be close to the beach. Easy peasy. And we couldn't find anything we loved. And so this one that we found it was actually before it really hit the market. And I think we got really lucky. It's a great house. And I think it would have gone into way more multiples had it been on the MLS,
Unknown Speaker 18:58
right? And you don't even go that route again. What what's this do to the family dynamic? What's everybody's got to do? Now your husband has to get do what with his clients, you were going to do what and your son is now going where?
Unknown Speaker 19:12
Oh, such good questions. It's all in flow. It's all flux. I think that my husband is gonna get an office, like part time office, because he's actually really interestingly, most of his therapy clients do not want to go in person. They're happy to be in zoom.
Unknown Speaker 19:24
Virtual right? You hear this a lot. So it's interesting to hear. I mean, and maybe you're about to say the same thing for your own. And I don't know, you tell us, but it seems like you know, those who were going to therapy, you hear it a lot from therapists. I've spoken to a lot of therapists over the past couple of years since the pandemic, just because no so many of them just just part of, you know, the social circle, and they're like, yeah, not coming back. You know, people would rather be on zooms. Yeah, I
Unknown Speaker 19:55
mean, this this is what I was gonna say they are most people want to be on Zoom. My husband really wants to be in person, he misses the dynamic of just being in the room with someone. I have been virtual for a really long time. And I like it that way. I like having a day or so of in person meetings, but, but I'm good with mostly being on Zoom. So it'll be you know, he'll be at the office and we'll have some space and that will be great. And that's, that's the loose plan. We're putting, putting adding a little studio in there. So we can film stuff. And I've finished a course and he finished a course as well make more courses in the house. And you know, things
Unknown Speaker 20:34
like that. You finish of course, you've finished an online course that you put yourself out there, the word your your use the term mastermind, I don't know, but one of the courses that you did, and
Unknown Speaker 20:46
so I've launched a course called from inspiration to action. And it's about how to develop a joyful creative practice where you're not beating your head against the wall and feeling stuck all the time. And that's just I mean, it's very newly out there. I just finished the beta a couple months ago, and, and I'm excited to get people in the course.
Unknown Speaker 21:05
Tell us more about that. Let's go down. Let's go down that road. So your your perfect client, your avatar for for who you're working with him in branch out coaching, tell us more?
Unknown Speaker 21:15
Yeah, well, I'll back up a little bit and tell you where it came from in terms of work, work life and everything, I spent most of my career in advertising on the creative side as copywriter, and I love the creativity part of it, I love the collaborative, a collaborative piece of it. I didn't love the selling of things. And, you know, that's part of it, obviously. But
Unknown Speaker 21:41
part of advertently quote unquote, advertising and selling things, like
Unknown Speaker 21:45
say most obvious thing, but But you know, there were parts of it that I really loved and parts of it that were just starting to feel less aligned with what I really wanted to put out in the world. And I, you know, years into it was just needing a change. And a change was kind of forced on me. My little brother passed away and I was wrecked. And this is such a long story that I'm going to make very short, but I just couldn't go back to my daily stuff in the way that I was doing it, there was no way for me to feel good about the life that I I felt like I was waiting for something to change, instead of making change myself. And I, I, I needed to move past that. And so I ended up going back to school, and I got my degree in Human Development with a focus on social change. And then I really wanted to work with people one on one, I thought maybe I was going to become a therapist, but I took a slight detour and went into coaching. And as I went through the programs and everything I realized, you know, coaching is wonderful, and I have an opportunity to bring in the gifts that I have been given and have learned along the way in my previous career. And so
Unknown Speaker 22:53
is that why you wanted to coaching me was that really the the thought process at the time, when you diverted into coaching from I really
Unknown Speaker 23:00
wanted to help people become more of who they really are, like really get in touch with, with what makes them light up. And and so often, I guess, because I'm a creative person. So often it's creative people who come to me and who I just adore, and they come to me stuck. And so I have this, you know, this deep background and brainstorming and, and creativity where I just love to play, you know, I love to play with people wherever they're stuck and bring a little bit of levity and joy into their process. And so you've heard me talk about my morning routine already, we've talked about that. That's sort of like, as I left advertising, I sort of started to build my own routines and practices and, and try them out on people and try them out on myself. And and lo and behold, we come to today where I've got from inspiration to action, which is, which is the new program.
Unknown Speaker 24:00
That's awesome. Are you going to do more? Did you mentioned? Right? Yeah, I think you said in the new house, you're going to be launching some other course. Yeah. And you said your husband as well. He put a course together for Yes.
Unknown Speaker 24:11
Practice. He, he has put together a course that is not launched yet. But it's any any moment now. It's called Making Sense of your emotions. And it's about the difference between feelings and emotions. And he's got a deep mindfulness background. And so it's using mindfulness and psychotherapy and, and some Buddhist wisdom, to kind of help people understand what they're feeling, why and what to do with it. And he and I, like love to mess around and play with ideas together. And we've done over the pandemic and even before of course, on mindfulness and creativity, but we've done it live. So, so fun. So I'm thinking maybe what we'll do is do a recorded version of that where people can kind of do both I was gonna say he put his chocolate in my peanut butter. It's like, kinds of things. Really fun with mindfulness and creativity are like cousins anyway.
Unknown Speaker 25:09
I was just thinking conversations around the dinner table must be fascinating. And your son, what's, what's his plan? Or is he going?
Unknown Speaker 25:18
He's awesome. So he's gonna go to Cleveland High School. He got into their humanities magnet, there's gonna be a lot of writing, and he will get used to that. He's brilliant. He's a brilliant kid. He's a musician, too. He plays piano and trombone, and he wants to join the jazz band in the marching band, and, you know,
Unknown Speaker 25:38
aspirational and inspirational. That sounds pretty awesome. Yeah, you're saying Did you is that is that because, uh, you did you make
Unknown Speaker 25:45
not really writer but he is a writer, he just doesn't really know it yet. Like, this program has so much writing because this is how they, they their interdisciplinary or interdisciplinary approach works. It's so that you're doing a lot of writing and digesting that way. And that's some of the college prep that they do.
Unknown Speaker 26:05
As a college, does he have any ideas? Or do you have any ideas for
Unknown Speaker 26:07
Unknown Speaker 26:08
Unknown Speaker 26:09
No clue, no clue. Couple years I've definitely Russia give right. And I guess I can hear it in university, like don't even tell he's not leaving them out of the house for that. But as you mentioned, he will be a writer. in some capacity,
Unknown Speaker 26:24
he will learn how to write well, he already does know how to write but he was gonna learn how to write really, really well. And he'll be able to use that he's got a good noodle,
Unknown Speaker 26:34
by the way, trombone and piano, like, how did those two things come about? I don't often hear those.
Unknown Speaker 26:39
I mean, he he's been playing piano since he was really little. And I mean, three or four any lessons with a teacher who was like, a Mother Goose, she was just loving and sweet and, and she took him to a place where she's like, I can't really teach him anymore. She was kind of he had graduated her. And after that he had a teacher and he left and inspired. And it was like, we thought maybe piano was gonna go away. And I was really wanting him to continue, but I wasn't sure how it was gonna happen. And then he came home from school one day, I think it was in fourth grade. And he was lit up about this woman who came and performed and how fast her fingers were going and what she was doing and what she was teaching them. And I tracked this woman down and I was like, Where do you live? Do you teach? And are you taking any new students? She said, I have one other student. I said, Do you want another one? And I don't know if there was some like mother instinct in there. But I got the two of them together. And he's been playing like, beautifully since then. She's a wonderful, wonderful teacher and mentor to him. And he's great. He's like playing. It's playing jazz. And it's awesome.
Unknown Speaker 27:48
So good. This is sauce and they're still together. He still sees her.
Unknown Speaker 27:51
Yeah. And now and now on Zoom. But she's in terminal. So you know, we can go also go see her. And then trombone happened. Because when he got into the music program over here at Walter Reed, there was only one spot for piano and it was like, already taken by some virtuoso. So he tried trombone.
Unknown Speaker 28:11
He's like, Yeah, just just trombone. Why not? Just that that looks cool. That's a cool.
Unknown Speaker 28:16
And then like, randomly two months ago, he's like, Hey, I'm gonna join the percussion group. So now that's Thursdays after school.
Unknown Speaker 28:22
That's the new thing. Like, Well, look, it's all I mean, it's like it's all under the same umbrella. But yeah. Well, good for him. Laurie, our 30 minutes are fast approaching here. I'm looking at the clock that went very, very quickly. Oh, my God, very much appreciate the time. Appreciate you move into clients and it didn't know that. But thank you so much. I think this is more important. Anyway, obviously, obviously, this conversation moving and told us, you're really, it's always a lot about deconstruction. This is very cool. I'm certainly gonna go look into that. So thank you for bringing that up. Sounds like a very, very cool program that Habitat for Humanity is put together and you would mention real quickly again, that you said that this you want to get involved in it somehow that you thought I mean, it'd be calling
Unknown Speaker 29:05
I don't know, you know, I'm most super passionate, creative person. And so sometimes I have these flares. I have to really check myself and see if that's what I want to spend my time on or not. But I think it's, I think it's very worthwhile and in some way, I do want to be involved. I just I don't know what that means yet, but I'm excited about it.
Unknown Speaker 29:24
Hope you get a chance. Congratulations on the sailor house. Congratulations on the new one you got and this big, exciting awesome move west but not too far west so I'm sure to work out. Wonderful. Laurie shires branch out coaching. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today.
Unknown Speaker 29:39
Thank you, Erin. Good to talk to you. You too.