Margaret A. Williamson

Image of Aaron Pfeffer
Aaron Pfeffer
HubSpot Video

Aaron Pfeffer: Good morning, everyone. Holy cow, we got a good one for you today. Welcome to 30 minutes with Spyglass lending. I have an incredible guest, a fellow Indiana Hoosier, by the way, we both went to the same college. We're going to talk a little bit about that in a minute. Uh, uh, and, and, and a Midwesterner at heart, Margaret Williamson, owner and CEO of persevere, uh, in American designer brand.

This was started by her and her husband back in 2012. And she's. All about it. Welcome to the show, Margaret. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today.

Margaret A. Williamson: Uh, thank you so much, Aaron, for inviting me. This is such an exciting opportunity to share parts of my story, uh, from a unique angle. And so I'm excited.

Aaron Pfeffer: Yeah. And we're very excited to have you, so let's start with this. Why don't you in your own words, tell us about persevere. Uh, The company itself. And then we'll talk about how you got there. Yeah,

Margaret A. Williamson: definitely. Well, persevere is an American designer brand. We're really creating the new uniform for those people who are pursuing their passions.

Right. We have fellow entrepreneurs who need to stand out, but for the right reasons. And a lot of times we're looking for ways to start a conversation. And we really believe at persevere that those conversations can start. I really liked that shirt or those are some nice shoes, right? Those, those easy softball, icebreakers that didn't give you an opportunity to tell a little bit of the story that then turns into you telling a story about yourself.

And so persevere is, is aiming to kind of take that spot and we focus on those American textiles. So a lot of. Suedes denims, corduroys, French Terrys, and we're making full lifestyle. So all the way from hats and glasses, apparel, footwear luggage for men, women, and children, we are size inclusive. So we are turning 10 this September, and it's been an exciting ride.

Aaron Pfeffer: That is awesome. Well, congratulations on a decade long run already and many decades to come, certainly. And we could see, you know, there in, in, uh, your name P R SVR, which if you go to PR svr.com, which you should and check out this brand, which is really amazing. And of course your are displaying some of it not only behind you, but wearing a pretty awesome, incredible shirt as well.

Uh, just to give a little taste of it. And you know, you, you started this company with your husband brand.

Margaret A. Williamson: Yes, I did. You know, and it was really, it was, it was his brain child. It was something that he started with his college roommate, this vision of X clothing brand, really a footwear brand is what they were thinking.

Uh, and I met him, you know, when we were kind of ending our twenties and he had this, an amazing framework that they had yet to launch a product. And I think I was ready to come out of the corporate world, but I had that. That vision. I had the courage and, and thinking, you know, okay, entrepreneurship, can't be that different from corporate life.

Little did I know,

Aaron Pfeffer: you know,

Margaret A. Williamson: I think I gave him the courage he needed for us to jump into it. And we are now here.

Aaron Pfeffer: Well, he's, he's the lead designer, but you are the owner and CEO. You are the CEO, the decision maker. And as you mentioned, the marketing, the marketing guru behind it all. And, and let's talk about that because, you know, I think as part of your biography, you talk about how you worked in the corporate world for a little bit, and this prepared you, or maybe it didn't quite prepare you for everything, hopefully, but you've learned along the way.

You know, tell us, tell us what you were doing prior to this before, you know, joining up with Brandon and starting this, uh, starting, starting persevere. What were you doing prior to that? And how did.

Margaret A. Williamson: I am, you know, I graduated from IUU, so right. Uh, you don't lose

Aaron Pfeffer: your, by the way, when were you there?

Margaret A. Williamson: I was there.

I was there. I graduated from high school in 2000. So like I was in 2004,

Aaron Pfeffer: just, just a few years back. I mean, I graduated from Iowa in 2000. Exactly. And both of us Kelley school of business marketing where you also, I was,

Margaret A. Williamson: yes, I was marketing and yes. And I did an international studies. Uh, and from there winds work for Philip Morris.

So I was doing territory sales. I moved to Louisville, Kentucky, and, uh, you know, it was experiencing that kind of B2B life running, you know, about a hundred accounts. And at the time. The thing to do was to buy a house. And so I, you know, took that route. I mean, I was on that plan, you know, I had this whole plan for my life and by the time I'm 25, you know, I'm going to dot.dot, and it's like, you check off the boxes as you go along.

And I had the career and then I bought the house and then I got engaged and, you know, it was kind of going down the list and found myself just miserable. You know what I mean, crying every day in the car, thinking there has to be more to life than. And

Aaron Pfeffer: was it the pressure, if I, if I may ask him, did it, did it feel just that corporate pressure or like the fact that you put the pressure on yourself with the check check, check, what do you think was going on?

Margaret A. Williamson: No. No, I think it was, you know, those dreaded expectations. And when you, you know, have the picture of what you thought it would feel like when you accomplished certain things and then it just doesn't feel like. Yeah. Sometimes. And I think it was because I had someone else's list in front of me, you know, it was sort of like society's list of achievements that I was working my way down.

And, um, you know, I was excelling in my career. I ha you know, at the time, you know, we kind of already dated ourselves. So we know when it was, it was a great time to be graduating with a great, you know, with an amazing degree in a competitive field. You know, I was starting salary at $50,000 is 21, you know, You know, it was, it was the, it was the life I thought I wanted, you know, I was taking my mom on vacations.

I was working my way up the corporate ladder. Um, you know, I was buying property, you know, it was like this, this traditional path and it just something wasn't clicking. And so I sort of hit, you know, at first it was really, I think I saw also the product and at the, I had come out of pilly school of business, really feeling.

You know, Hey, whatever the consumer decides to do is on them. But as you know, a sales person working for her, I want to make sure that once they make that. That they're choosing the best product. Right? And so here I'm telling the story of the brand and the good that we're doing. And so they had, I had thought about moving over to the community affairs side of the business, but you know, it didn't work out with a move to Virginia and, and so come back to the sales side.

And so, you know, long story short, I sort of turned 25 and said, okay, I quit everything, you know, broke up with the fiance job. And then what do I do with this. Um, and so I rented it out or, you know, to a tenant, you know, it was someone I had met, like kind of on, I don't even think LinkedIn existed back then really, but a corporate network, you needed a furnished house.

You know, he was taking a contract job in mobile. It worked out perfectly until he left, you know, stuck trying to become a landlord and have no idea how to do that as you know what I mean, a 25 year old. I'm trying to start life over now, where you

Aaron Pfeffer: still, where were you at this time? Like, so you have the property back in Kentucky, but where are you?

Are you you're in Virginia.

Margaret A. Williamson: So I, you know, tried to do, you know, try to move back home. Know my parents were like, you're not moving here. I moved in with my best friend in Indianapolis, and now I'm back in Indianapolis, where I went to high school. Uh, you know, Trying different career paths on, you know, it was like, well, if I wasn't going to take that job, I was going to go to law school.

So let me, you know, go that route and get a job at a law firm and try that on the same time I'm trying to manage this property. And then I started working for a lawyer getting a taste of that and realizing that it's not at all what they make it seem like on-time.

Aaron Pfeffer: It's not every Fox show that looks so glamorous, right?

Margaret A. Williamson: Not at all. Um, and so you're, you're, I'm trying on different things and I get a call one day and the it's a neighbor from down the global saying that the smoke alarms are going off inside the house. And no one's, there comes to find out my tenant had just sort of vacated and not told me, you know, it, it was.

A nightmare. Right. Um, so kind of going through that at the same time, as trying to figure things out, I feel like, you know, it, it made me a little bit nervous about owning property and how to manage those things. Um, Especially

Aaron Pfeffer: not being in your own backyard. I mean, just, just a quick aside, I own some property back in the day as well, thinking that I could be an absentee landlord, like from across the country, it was in Missouri.

And I remember one of the tenants or not a tenant, but someone literally left the box of chemicals on the stove, trying to blow up. Didn't know why I never really quite found out, but you telling the story of the smoke alarms kind of that memory. And I don't, maybe something similar happened. I don't know if it was a Vagrant or whoever was in the property that may have done that.

You said the tenant was gone, but yeah, it's not easy. No,

Margaret A. Williamson: it's not. You know, and there's not a ton of, um, I mean, hopefully there is today. I honestly haven't looked back into it. Um, you know, hopefully there's more education available for, you know, those people that find themselves. And like, you know, kind of accidental landlord positions.

Aaron Pfeffer: No, no doubt about it, but, but fast forward a couple of years you're so you're, you're in Indianapolis. You're with your parents or you're living with a friend, uh, you said, because your parents said you can't come back home, you're still out there on your own. Go make it, uh, and go parents. Good for them for saying

at the time it was like, what? But of course, now we can look back and say probably the best thing. And you are, you are a parent yourself.

Margaret A. Williamson: I am. Yes. I have three children now, eight, five, and one and a half.

Aaron Pfeffer: Another thing we have in common, also three children, not obviously the same ages, but uh, yeah,

just, just getting started two twins, six months old, but, uh, You're back there. You're figuring it out. Law firm didn't work out like you hoped or working for a lawyer. So what was the next step? Yeah,

Margaret A. Williamson: so the next step was okay. Maybe I want to be a news anchor. So I, uh, you know, uh, worked my way into a full-time active internship at the WTA.

Uh, branch of NBC and Indianapolis and, you know, went through that and it was kind of the same revelation again, like, oh, you know, this is not at all. What I thought this career would look like, you know, from a day-to-day basis. Um, and then, you know, from there I went to fine dining at Morton steakhouse.

Like maybe I want to get into hospitality. Like I really liked sales. I like communication. Um, and so worked my way and became marketing director at Morton steak. And it felt like a little too stuffy. And I was like, okay, well, do you know what I mean? I think I had enough of pharmaceutical reps and you know, I've done that life already.

Right. And so then I, then I kind of transferred over to a comedy club in Indianapolis and started managing, doing kind of the marketing and management of a comedy club on the north side of Indianapolis. And that was so much fun. I was a little too much fun.

Aaron Pfeffer: We've all been there, but this is an incredible tale, by the way, like this circuitous tale of your twenties of not quite knowing what to do, but having, you know, you, you had this incredible, like this drive to say, like, I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna try it.

And you've got all these jobs. You did. You really got all of these checks. A lot of people talk about that, right? I'm going to make this transition. I'm going to do this now, but not everybody has this ability to go get these jobs or even enter these, these industries. And obviously, you know, I

Margaret A. Williamson: think you just have to, you know, you've got to believe, right?

You gotta see yourself. That's what I always say. Like when you see it in your mind's eye, like you can believe it and then you just. Step in that direction. And it's amazing how opportunities open up and then just, you know, kind of going for it. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was such a fun path and I'll, I'll, you know, fast forward a little bit so that I, you know, went through the comedy club, but like, okay, I need to come back to the daytime world.

And I always had sort of a passion for fashion and, uh, a girlfriend of mine owns a high-end consignment duty. In Indianapolis at the time, but she was going to become like the head legal counsel for the city of Gary. So she was moving and she's like, would you, could you, what do you think? And I'm like, yeah, why not?

And so began kind of managing this retail environment. And at the same time I launched sort of an online radio shows as similar to kind of, you know, a podcast is what they call it now.

Aaron Pfeffer: But back then, we're still where we are still back in the time. Right. We're not quite.

Margaret A. Williamson: And, uh, and so through that, I was actually covering a music release party and.

I was introduced to Brandon who was going through town, actually on a tour to market his app that he built for iPhones and Androids that was called soul search and helped find sneaker boutiques, like all over the place. If you're looking at those with the big sneaker and you landed in LA, you could find out where it would be sold.

Right. Um, and so we sort of, you know, connected, our friend was like, oh, you guys should enter it. You know, you should interview him for your show. And, uh, you know, he always jokes that he never did get that interview. And, uh, but yeah, from India, you know, we, we met, we had a quick courtship, we met and married in 60.

We ended up launching the brand six months after that, and then moved to Chicago in January of 2013.

Aaron Pfeffer: Was there, did you, did you begin talking about the brand? Do you mean talking about perseverance? Like right. I mean, was this like almost part of the whirlwind romance, like, and he was excited about it,

Margaret A. Williamson: you know, he, um, he was living in Chicago when we met.

And so when he came back for kind of our first day, He had a duffel bag with them and it was this beautiful, like ostrich duffel bag. And, you know, I sort of, I'm like, you know, I had to remark on like, that's a great bag, you know, where'd you get it? And he's like, oh, I made it. And I didn't know at first, like what to think about that.

And then the same thing he had on this amazing. Quilted funnel, neck pity with these huge draw strings. And I was, again, like I made it. And, and so, yes, you know, from the first day it was evident that he had this skill of design and creation and then, you know, learning more about his background and you know, that he'd been to Milan and he studied under, you know, world renown, cobblers, and he really understands construction and, you know, he's traveled all over.

So he understands the sourcing part of the. And at the time when his friend started someone else was the designer. So it was like, you know, it was so easy for me to spot the opportunity. Um, yeah. I was like, you know, and

Aaron Pfeffer: you said, I could take this. I can take exactly what you're doing. Let's let's blow this

Margaret A. Williamson: up.

I mean, I think it's because I had stepped into working behind so many different types of entrepreneurs. That it really, you know, I I'd done big corporate. I had done like big organizations, but then I had also worked for an individual lawyer when I worked at the law firm, you know, seeing my girlfriend have that consignment and boutique.

Um, even the comedy club was it really independent operation, but with a bigger team. So I saw all these different levels and I understood that, you know, entrepreneurship and business owner. Can and will, and we all hope looks like billion dollar organizations, you know, but it can also look like just what you need to provide for your family or

Aaron Pfeffer: somewhere in between.

Margaret A. Williamson: Right. And so we've just decided to kind of grow our brand as we've grown our family. Um, and now we're at a unique crossroads as we hit 10 years that, you know, our family is much bigger. Um, and we're ready to take the brand in a more public direction. Yeah.

Aaron Pfeffer: And, and, and we're, we're, we want to touch on that.

Of course, we're going to get to that, but back to Chicago, I mean, it was six, as you mentioned, six months of courtship, and you're talking about it, you're building the brand together. And, and six months later after you moved back to Chicago was really when you launched. Yeah. Did you feel you were ready?

Did you think, did you have everything in place when you did? Or was it just like, let's just jump feet first and grow it as we go?

Margaret A. Williamson: Yeah. You know, we started as a digitally native company, so the way this is pre Amazon. Um, and so it really wasn't an unrealistic perspective. The way we built the structure was that if you placed your order online, it took us about 10 to 15 days to produce that.

Okay. One at a time, right? Like made to order and then get it shipped off to the client. And so, you know, as long as production ran on schedule, people were happy and willing to wait for, you know, really nice leather pieces, uh, shipped directly to them. We made a sample of each piece in the line and we just made it in our sizes.

So, um, and because the brand is his and hers and my husband, I'm Tom, my husband's tall. We really could wear a lot of the same pieces. And show them how to style it. So we just, we made the first run of samples and we started, we went to different major events. We went out to all-star weekend and it was in Houston that year.

We went out to Las Vegas for the magic, like big fashion trade show. And we went around and people would just stop us. And then we would, you know, I wouldn't recommend this now, especially post COVID, but it was sort of. How back up to our room, you know, let me show you what

Aaron Pfeffer: with you. That's the best, that's the absolute best way you're just out there literally showcasing it.

And then, yeah. I mean, come on back up to our room let's party a little bit and yeah. And, and, and, and check out our clothing.

Margaret A. Williamson: Yeah. Right, exactly. Um, but that is really how it went down and, uh, you know, and one trip early on. I think we launched like September of 19. So that February, uh, Tiana Taylor, her stylist saw that we were posting that we were in Houston and they lost her luggage.

And they were like, Hey, I see that you're out here. If you really are like, maybe you can help us out. And they had us go over and you know, she's, she's in the room, Peru, she's there. Do you know what I mean? All these other, like, you know, celebrities. You know, we kind of lay the line out on the bat. We have no idea how this is supposed to work.

You go. And she was just sort of like, I love it. I love it. I'll take that one.

Aaron Pfeffer: Okay. You know, I'm fortuitous is that they lost her luggage. They sought you out and you were, I mean, that's talking about opportunity knocking, right? That's incredible.

Margaret A. Williamson: That's where we always say, you know, it's like, we're luck, you know, we're opportunities.

Preparation. It's just like, you know, putting yourself in the position to, to receive whatever more the pieces that night she took a picture post on Instagram and then it kind of took off.

Aaron Pfeffer: Amazing. Okay. And the, and, and you spent the rest of the time in Chicago over the next few years building the brand.

And what did that look like? I mean, we're, you know, besides obviously putting it on the website, like, what were you looking for, uh, to do it in apparel? I mean, you started with clothing and then you wanted to branch out, or did you expect to do that and originally, or did it kind of take on a life on, of itself

Margaret A. Williamson: the vision.

So I think, yeah, always be full lifestyle from the beginning, we called ourselves an elevated lifestyle brand. And so, you know, having the image of Ralph Lauren in your mind, you know, of course, of, of just creating everything, you know, head to toe, but it started with leather and we were making. We then begin to footwear.

We started in the Pilsen neighborhood, so we found a work live space. We had a showroom in the very front, and then it was kind of shotgun style, straight back, uh, you know, went into the kitchen and then all the way to the back. That's where we had our first child. And then that's when things kind of started getting like, okay, maybe a little more separation would be good.

You know, we'd have like clients knocking on the door and I feel like, you know,

Aaron Pfeffer: mixed use commercial spaces. Great. If you can keep it separate, but that that's funny. Yeah. Like it really, I guess that I get that let's find own. Right. We

Margaret A. Williamson: that we separated the two and moved the store to still impulse in an 18th and Halstad, which, you know, now it's this booming, great, uh, little RD district, uh, in Chicago.

And from there, it was kind of, uh, through. Again, putting ourselves in the right place at the right time, we moved from there all the way onto Michigan avenue, which is that main shopping thoroughfare in Chicago in the Bloomingdale's mall at 900 north Michigan. And that allowed us to, uh, you know, I think we, you brought up commercial real estate and sometimes, you know, people are hesitant to get into that, but it really can be such a resume builder.

You know, it's almost like. This institution believes in them enough, you know what I mean? And is willing to partner with them. It makes, you know, even your end users, your in clientele and the other side of your website, more confident in doing business with you. Okay.

Aaron Pfeffer: Did they seek you out by the way, or was it a partnership that you were knocking on their door?

Hey, take us in. Or were they looking for you ultimately realize.

Margaret A. Williamson: I think like one of our clients somehow got in a shared Uber ride with the marketing director of 900 north Michigan, we started talking about like them wanting independent Chicago brands to fill some of these vacancies and he recommended us.

And so she, yeah, she reached out, she came over to the shop. That was that

Aaron Pfeffer: unbelievable. Another fortuitous account, but like you said, I mean, this is what happens right. When you've got the people out there for you who believe in you and what you do, that that's exactly how it happens.

Margaret A. Williamson: And so we stayed there.

We were in the mall for like two and a half years. I was then now pregnant with our second child and just feeling like I wanted a little bit more flexibility and freedom, you know, being inside of a mall setting, you're still held accountable to other people's hours and schedules. So I wanted to do back on street level.

So we moved to the west loop area in Chicago and then crime kind of became a factor, just kind of feeling like, okay, Is this where we want to raise our kids. Do we want to stay here in the city? Um, and there was always something in us that knew that the brand was bigger than Chicago. You know, we always say that Chicago is an amazing place to build your boat, but then what, you can't really steal it anywhere.

You're, you're still stuck right there. And so we went to Atlanta. Well, no. Then we opened in DC. We opened that, you know, pop up. We thought we'd be able to maybe like go back and forth and just have, you know, some separation. And then we developed what we call like a roving retail experience. So we decided, all right, we'll make these sort of extended pop-up shops inside of neighborhoods to get those people in that area and opportunity to come in, touch the clothes, try it on.

Then they can feel more competent in purchasing online.

Aaron Pfeffer: When you forgive me what you say extended pop-up shop. Like how long are we talking about just a few months, you'd be in a location or a little longer

Margaret A. Williamson: than that. TC. I think that one was yeah, about like six months. And Brandon, and we had a management team out there and he would kind of go back and forth.

But again, that was that same time I was pregnant with brave our second child. And. It just, we realized we needed to be out there. Like if it was going to be our store, we probably needed to be on the ground. That that's really what was special about the in-store experience. And so then we decided to go to Atlanta and move the family to Atlanta open up there.

We did it in the Buckhead neighborhood, moves into, uh, one of the, they do a lot of stores and houses down there. And so we renovated one of those facilities and turned it into our show.

Aaron Pfeffer: You're saying like a single family residency took over down there and turn the, I mean,

Margaret A. Williamson: there's, it's like a little area.

So it's like a lot of little businesses that do like an interior designer or like a barber, you know, just like this little row in Buckhead and ended up being next door to like black ink crew. They opened up one of their famous tattoo parlors, like two doors down. And so that was an awesome experience, a totally different loved Atlanta, um, great clientele, but wasn't really the right fit for our family, uh, where we were at.

And so we didn't know where we would go next. And we decided to do like a series of shorter pop-ups that we. Luckily Brandon's family allowed us to like bring the whole family back to like their house. And, you know, they had enough room to, to put us up with, you know, with our two kids and allowed us to spend a year going like to Miami, going to LA, going to Brooklyn, to Detroit, trying out all these different marketplaces, just to sort of test the response to the product and see how we felt.

And then opportunities opened up for us to come to LA. And we decided in January of 2019, we moved to LA.

Aaron Pfeffer: And by the way, how, I mean, was this like exciting to you? You were like, yes, this is really what you wanted to be in Los Angeles. Or were you thinking some of some other place

Margaret A. Williamson: it's funny? I think it was like maybe, you know, our second date or something.

Brandon actually had already accepted a position out here in LA to manage like a high-end sneaker before. And so he asked me like, you know, I think you're the one, I think we're going to do this. Like, would you move to LA with me? And I wasn't ready. You know, I was like, no, no, not

Aaron Pfeffer: yet. Give me a decade, but yeah, let's see, give me a decade and a couple of kids and let's see how it goes.

Yeah. You know,

Margaret A. Williamson: we always joke like, well, what if we've done it then? And he's like, I have no idea.

I mean, I'm glad we have the story that we have and you know, now we're out here and I don't know what's next, you know,

Aaron Pfeffer: RI do you have a retail spot here in Los

Margaret A. Williamson: Angeles? So we have a showroom in Burbank and then we just actually concluded a retail experience that we did. We moved to the students and ranch neighborhoods.

They're out in Santa Clarita. And so the mall there at Valencia had a ton of vacancies, you know, as we see across the country, it, especially, but before that it was happening now, it's just horrible. And it's put a lot of these retail landlords in interesting positions. And so we have a program called act devise where we can kind of go in and stage vacant retail.

You know, corner stores. It was, this one was actually a previous Michael Kors space. And so they want, you know, a high dollar amount for the property, but Hey, if everything's vacant, how are you going to woo. Even a national tenant, especially ones that we kind of negotiate, you know, much lower than market rates and go in and set up shop and they bring in, you know, different potential buyers.

Aaron Pfeffer: And this is also a short period of time that you're in. Yeah,

Margaret A. Williamson: we did Indianapolis and only took, you know, we were hoping it would take longer, but it only took like 45 days for them incident who, a market rate tenant out here. We were here for three months. So we did the December, January, February, and then it happens like right in the middle of March.

Uh, but you know, it's a win-win and I think it's a program that hopefully, you know, more retail, uh, retail landlords will be open. And

Aaron Pfeffer: essentially what you're saying is the infrastructure is already in place for a club, you know, a clothing operator to move in, in and out very quickly. Right. I mean, because that's essentially what it's all set up for these, these spaces you're talking about, the showrooms are kind of there.

Uh, so the turnover is easier that way, but like you're saying, if they're finding that long-term tenant, Hey, they have to give precedents, how can they not have them? They turn that down. But in the interim, sure. You're there for the ride, '

Margaret A. Williamson: cause it? You know, it hurts everyone. Um, you know, same. When you walk by and it's just, everything's boarded up and blacked out, even when you have like an apple store there or an anthropology, like, well, you kind of would rather take the family to the apple store at old orchard.

Do you know what I mean? Where everyone can, you know, walk around and enjoy different things instead of taking it to a place where the rest of the stores aren't active.

Aaron Pfeffer: And the brand itself now, I mean, it's really head to toe. I mean, going on your website, which is an incredible experience just to go on the site and look around and see everything, which is awesome by the way.

But I mean, literally you have you covered all right. I mean, all of it is there.

Margaret A. Williamson: Yeah. You know what I mean? You have more plans, but our goal is to, you know, really believe that any moment could be your moment. And you want to be prepared and sometimes we can get caught thinking, like, what should I wear?

What am I, you know, and how do we stand out? But for the right reasons, I don't want to be too loud. And we really create that clothing that's for your special moments. And then to whatever degree in level, you know, if it's becomes your everyday with pieces like the polo, um, or if it's, you know, a very special onstage moment and you want to be like full leather, full leather, Uh, it's a visual way to remind yourself and everyone else like to persevere and keep going and, you know, resilience, uh, races, defeat kind of thing.

Aaron Pfeffer: I think we should end it there because. Our 30 minute mark right on. And that is a great way to end Margaret Williamson from persevere E R svr.com. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again for joining us today. That was an awesome, uh, journey of your own and telling us your story and how you've gotten here. I mean, you know, it sounds like you've already made it and you're crushing it, but I have to assume that as the decades go along, this is going to blow up big and you're going to do.

So,

Margaret A. Williamson: thank you so much. Thank you so much for the time for the opportunity. Again, a wonderful experience.

Aaron Pfeffer: Appreciate it. Appreciate your time. Thank you for.

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