Unknown Speaker 0:02
How'd you one August 25 2020, to yet another installment of 30 minutes with Spyglass lending. Of course, as usual, as always, we have an incredible guest today, someone with a long history in real estate, she's going to allow us with many an anecdote, many historian she's going to tell us what she's been doing now. Please welcome to the show yell the Hoff. She is a partner in the design build firm, huff Jeonhwa. Welcome, Yalda thank you for being here. Thank you so much. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Let's start with this because I always like to start right here. You. Where are you from originally? And how'd you make your way to Los Angeles? Hmm, good question. I am originally from Holland, the Netherlands. I studied in Belgium, and lived there for six years. And then I came over here. A long time ago, I was 25 came over here for for a guy.

Unknown Speaker 0:58
And then I had a job I was a consultant with McKinsey and Company and they're international. And so I got them to transfer me over here and came here broke up with a man and I've been here pretty much ever since I broke up with the guy stayed with the job for a little bit, stayed with the job for a little bit and then left the job. What if you don't mind what is McKinsey WHAT WAS THAT IS HE is a is a international consulting firm they do strategic consulting for huge companies.

Unknown Speaker 1:28
So they're you know, they're it's a great it was a great first job. It was a hard work, lots of travel, but super interesting to kind of work with, you know, senior management of big companies on strategy was cool. Yeah, absolutely. Not for me long term. But well, let's talk about long term for a second what was next on the list. Next, I went to big corporations, which was a kind of a natural flow. So I went to Mattel that's my company. She were there for I think two three years. Elsa Gundo. From

Unknown Speaker 1:58
the airport. Exactly. Yeah. Barbie, the home of Barbie. There will be my life but

Unknown Speaker 2:05
never never understood that. But yeah, it was it was very it was like working in strategy working

Unknown Speaker 2:11
with the top management on strategic stuff.

Unknown Speaker 2:15
Then I went to after that I went to New York for a little bit for a startup. It was the the internet explosion.

Unknown Speaker 2:23
ended up loving New York but not liking the company. So I came back. I only was there for six months. And then a six month stint in Manhattan. That's all Yeah, it was. It was great. I was in my 20s it was it was amazing. It was absolutely great. And it was it was a great experience to work for a startup. But it was in tech, which isn't really my thing. And it was a really great concept. But there was other companies with the concept and they went out and they didn't see it going anywhere.

Unknown Speaker 2:52
Went to Avery Dennison, another big corporation, where I am. Here's where it here's where my my life change happened. I was doing a management training program. So they stick you in different jobs for like, six to nine months where you're managing something

Unknown Speaker 3:11
like my husband is

Unknown Speaker 3:13
he's crawling to the bathroom scrolling down to the bathroom. Perfect. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 3:16
Anyway, um, we've got high production value go.

Unknown Speaker 3:21
Funny, sorry. No, so I was doing um, so they stuck me in different jobs for six to nine months to kind of train you to manage one of their businesses. It's kind of like, like three M is the bigger competitor. So they make like everything. They make street signs they make like paper, they make all kinds of stuff. So I ended up managing a sticky paper business paper that you buy to make stickers out of. Yeah, I was running that. And it was in Cincinnati, Ohio. Actually, the suburbs of Cincinnati, Ohio. We can move you have left Los Angeles yet again. And we're living in sensitive, but it was because it was temporary. I basically was was flying there every week and I had an apartment there. Oh, I see. Okay. So but I was there I think six months, six to nine months. But that's when I said Alright, we're good. Right? In the Midwest, bring me back home. Exactly. And that's when I remember actually there. We had to rebrand. They had two brands of sticky paper. We had to rebrand, they'd been lazy, they hadn't like paid attention, and they were losing market share. So we had to rebrand.

Unknown Speaker 4:27
And I remember I was just most interested in that we had this graphic design firm working on the logo, and that is what I liked.

Unknown Speaker 4:35
It was just a logo, but I was like, design. I don't like paper. I love I love people I love I love managing people, but I it just wasn't for me. So that's when I started a computer back company. So I was like I was corporate I made good money and wanted a nice feedback because they weren't they were boring. There were too many there were nothing. And I figured okay, I'm not a designer, but I can make

Unknown Speaker 5:00
The computer bank look nicer than black canvas, I can do almost a one point have had a to me computer, you've got to go through that for a period of

Unknown Speaker 5:09
you could do is it as a woman. So I did that. And then

Unknown Speaker 5:14
I ended up making some evening bags for friends, which I liked. And then that took off. And that was a lot more fun than computer bags. So I kind of morphed into just handbags evening bags.

Unknown Speaker 5:26
Did that for 10 years. And then

Unknown Speaker 5:30
it was going great. Big stores and international. But then the recession hit, which was not fun. And I met my now husband.

Unknown Speaker 5:41
And he was fun. That was fun that

Unknown Speaker 5:46
he was an architect. But so both of our businesses were struggling, right he you know, people weren't buying houses or building houses.

Unknown Speaker 5:54
And I was struggling with the business. It wasn't fun. It was just no one was buying anything. It was your your line was a bit more on the luxury side, right? So it was it kind of became like, do I need this as opposed to one exactly. It was like the first thing to go, all the big stores immediately cut back on the super big brands. But and it just you know, it had been 10 years. And then I got

Unknown Speaker 6:17
by that I kept it up for a bit and my husband and I had bought a little house in Culver City. That was a total dump, but super cute. And we did it up kind of on the side. And that was our first project together. And I loved it. I had I had already done my own home was this the intention was this you would already kind of come together and said, Hey, we're gonna flip this property together, we're gonna redesign it, we're gonna rehab it, or was it more of like, let's buy a house together and you're gonna live there and then ultimately turned into a flip what happened? It was always it was always a project. Okay, obviously, you know, loves that. And I had done I had owned a house in Laurel Canyon, I had completely done up years before and I loved it. I just loved the process. So it was wanted to do it again. And it just never had a plan for like when or how or like, I wasn't planning to leave my job for it. But um, but then we did that as an opportunity. And it was probably our highest margin return we've ever done. Even though we did a lot of work ourselves. And then I

Unknown Speaker 7:15
I became pregnant with my first child. And my I had had to fire everyone at the handbag company except one person who was kind of running the joint for me. And she said, I want to move to New York. I'm sorry, I'm quitting. So I was like, you know, I'm nine months pregnant. I am not enjoying this job. I'm very much enjoying the other job. I think we'd already started another.

Unknown Speaker 7:39
Another projects. Yeah, we had. This is right around 2009 2010. Yeah. We bought the first project. I think it was 2008. It was like it basically it ended up being the bottom of the market. Right? It was right. Yeah. And then we did another one right after that one. We got a couple investors involved a

Unknown Speaker 7:58
little bit bigger project a little bit bigger, exactly. More money. Sure. Yeah, exactly. We need more money we didn't done so well, the first time that you know, and that was friends and family. It wasn't like we didn't go out and find strangers.

Unknown Speaker 8:10
And then so I was nine months pregnant didn't have an assistant and was like, You know what? I was buying handbags, I'm gonna give it a break for a year. Try this house thing, try the mother thing. See how I feel in a year. If I want to go back, if I miss it, I'll go back. Like, no one's gonna miss me for a year. Nothing's happening. And if I don't, and I don't, and I didn't look back. So then it became my full time job very, very, very quickly. And what a perfect time to do it. Right. Because again, we're talking 2009 2010. I mean, as a reminder to anyone watching like, obviously ate the massive crash nine not a tremendous amount going on. But starting to see a little bit turn in the market. Maybe there's some optimism about 2010. I mean, we quickly started to see a sizable escalation in equity. And, you know, flipping was all the rage, a tremendous amount of foreclosures, a ton of short sales hitting the mark, and all of this inventory and anyone who knew what they were doing and get their hands on it, certainly, yourself included,

Unknown Speaker 9:04
started to do quite well. Right. So how many were you doing at the time, I mean, per year,

Unknown Speaker 9:10
we definitely went bigger and bigger. We got more and more investors. We had a little while where we had a few strangers, a few people that really weren't friends and family anymore.

Unknown Speaker 9:20
And we were doing great. We were doing great. We had a great track record so people wanted in

Unknown Speaker 9:25
we did like, I think we're the most we've ever done at the same time was for the time and different stages of like design, construction, selling all that stuff. And that's when we were like, That's a bit much because meanwhile we had another child. So we

Unknown Speaker 9:44
all happen at the same time. You're like how I'm not sleeping already at night, but the added pressure of financing for properties at the same time. I swear I was I was I had an I had C sections both times actually. And

Unknown Speaker 9:57
I think it was the first one

Unknown Speaker 10:00
I think we're in escrow. And I was working from the from the hospital bed.

Unknown Speaker 10:06
Because it here's the thing, it wasn't even that weird for me because it's just, I didn't I still me right, and I still have phone calls coming in. And if I can take the phone call, take the phone call, like, if you can't, you're not taking a lead because it's just the two of us. Right? That's incredible.

Unknown Speaker 10:23
It's one thing for dad to be like, Okay, well, you know, I'm just kind of sitting here. But you yourself, as you say, like you're powering through. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, it's funny, because that is kind of just how it is with us. And it's natural, because it's just like, we're, it's, we're on our own. I was paying us we have to do that. Right. And if you're if I was okay to do it, I wasn't. I wasn't whatever. I said it. Okay. It wasn't a big deal, really. But and there is no there is no maternity leave no paternity leave from from housekeeping. I mean, when you're doing that every minute counts every day, every dollar is ticking away, when you're paying holding costs when you're, when you're thinking about getting something back on the market and just, you know, turning it around and selling it and doing another right. We got we got better and better at financing, which which was great. It was a huge thing that I learned that I'm super grateful for understanding and knowing. Tell us, if you don't mind, what how were you doing the financing at the time for those projects we were so it started out with our own cash. And then it was friends and family. And then it was also strangers. And we we like for the bulk of the time, we weren't developers, we had a couple of lenders that were essentially also friends and family but hard money lenders, they would take first and second position, and then we would have investors, which would include us.

Unknown Speaker 11:41
And we would own the LLC in different different shares. And then, you know, after the lenders got paid, then the shareholders would would divvy up the rest.

Unknown Speaker 11:52
And so that, that was great, but you'd maybe put a more conventional lender in first position in second position was was the friends and family is that what you're mentioning? Right? Like, the first lender was friends or family? I was well, okay, so you're there was a sizable, like the larger portion in first position, and then more of like the gap financing or this call it mezzanine financing and second position a little bit. And then you'd have this limited partner LLC. That was that were all partaking in the profit participation once the lenders got paid back. Exactly. Where those lenders, were they just taking straight interest, or were they taking any participation themselves? No, they were taking it's funny because they were friends of family. So in the beginning, they were just pure investors, then they they change to, to being I mean, that was what they did with their money. They invested in real estate hard, the hard money lenders.

Unknown Speaker 12:39
And they had a small group of their own friends and families. But it was it was nice, because we there was a relationship it was it was obviously not that casual. There was you know, deeds and all that stuff. But it was it was there was a trust. And it was that was cool.

Unknown Speaker 12:54
So they they came first and then the investors got their share. We also learned to do construction lending, but not that much. But I do kind of like it because you're not paying everything upfront. Like it used to be that we had to get all the money lined up upfront, because we had to know who owns what share. So that was hard. Like we have to, we'd have to know exactly what the budget was before closing escrow because we got to know who the owners were, like that wasn't very flexible. So I think we just we learned flexibility through financing. And this construction lending you're talking about you mean a specific like rehab loan, a flip loan or more like a ground up construction for some of the larger projects? No, we've only done it once. And it was on a property that we intended to keep ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 13:44
I don't even know why we never did on others. I think probably if I think about it, it was that would have been so complicated to like, owns one. So we did that on our own property.

Unknown Speaker 13:55
Because it makes sense, because you basically paid interest when you want to use the money now. Right off the bat. Yeah. And that's it. And that's, I'm glad you brought that up, because it's a big misconception for a lot of barbers like oh, if I take such a sizable loan amount, including the construction, I'm paying this interest on this massive loan amount, but the reality is it's really just about the purchase money you take. And then what's being held left, you know, held back call it in the kitty for lack of a better word or the construction reserve. You're paying interest when you draw that money and only when you draw that money not until then.

Unknown Speaker 14:26
And I And it seemed overwhelming at first because you have to you know get get everyone to sign off on recording the

Unknown Speaker 14:35
blanking

Unknown Speaker 14:38
What do you call it? The lien release trigger. So every single time I paid somebody I had to get a lien release from them. And I mean we we have our own sub so you're not talking you're talking to laborers that don't often do this. And so and they're like what uh, what am I signing away in my account? So anyway, so I had to do all that work and it seemed overwhelming and you have to constantly have the budget updated.

Unknown Speaker 15:00
and have all your receipts and show the lender. They come and inspect that you've done what you say you've done, and then they'll pay you. But it wasn't actually that overwhelming at all. And I think it's a great thing to have learned.

Unknown Speaker 15:13
So and now that we're working with clients, they sometimes have to do this. And I'm happy that I can I have some knowledge of the situation, right, and I can help them do it. And the contractor basically ends up I think managing that. Yeah. I mean, and I like money. I mean, I like thinking about that stuff. Like, it's, it's not at all my husband's cup of tea, like building designing. But I still make a good team. Exactly, exactly. Now, he still is not gonna like the spreadsheets and that stuff. But the reason I brought up the financing, there is it's interesting that you were mentioning carrying costs. And that is so true. And that's something that people do not understand about flippers. And I hate that word, by the way, flippers is very flippant, but about developers, they,

Unknown Speaker 16:00
they think everything's cash, they think we just buy something like I'm also an agent, right? So I would sit at the open houses trying to sell our properties. And then being the agent, I'm not necessarily talking to people about that I designed the house, you know that that's could be awkward. So I was wearing a different hat at that point, right? Hey, disposition, sell this property be the really exactly learn like it, listen, listen to see what they're saying. Because if as soon as I say I'm involved, which, you know, at some point, you say it's no secret, but they they can't be as open, or they feel like they can't be as open. So I just wouldn't say that and then expecting the agent to be, you know, developer as well. But I remember once we I was at this property that was that was big, I think we listed it for three and a half million.

Unknown Speaker 16:47
And there was these neighbors, these two women that came and they were talking, well, you. So what's it, what's it, that's crazy, and where they buy it for all this? Oh, they're making $2 million, or something stupid like that, like

Unknown Speaker 17:05
it takes money to build. And I the way you have no idea the proportion of money that financing is, and that and we had a property in Venice, that that was a difficult one, because it happened during COVID, we were paying $25,000 a month in interest. So that's like, that's a big deal. That's a sizable amount. And if I may, because, you know, just want to interject for just a moment and kind of set a tone for this. A lot of these loans, we're talking about these rehab loans or construction loans are often somewhere between 12 to 18 months, you know, and you're already on that ticking clock to get the project done, but you're already feeling that psychologically, to get it off the plate. Because to your point, when you're fully extended, when you take all that money out of the kitty, yeah, you're can be paying upwards of something like $25,000 a month, not to mention the utilities, not to mention, you know, the taxes that are accruing or the insurance that keeps adding up. I mean, every little thing about these holding costs that you're right, I mean, a lot of people don't otherwise think about on the back end. But even still, even with all of those cars, it's still obviously a profitable business. If you're buying, right, if you're doing a great, great job on the design and the back end and the sale. Yeah, it is.

Unknown Speaker 18:14
But for sure, the first 10 years was easy, because we were also totally riding on the wave of real estate increasing.

Unknown Speaker 18:21
And when we hit the tail end of it, it was definitely different the margins, you know, as we were buying and doing the math on the margin we could make, we just had to accept that. It's no longer 20 to 30%.

Unknown Speaker 18:33
I mean, if it's if it's worst case scenario, 6% you do it? Because I think that's that's still paying you 6% Right, or, or getting to put your name on something or stamping it or that achievement. I mean, to your point, like, I think 2010 2011 All the way, maybe 2015 16, there was that 20 to 30% ROI that was just incredible. But that that kind of went by the wayside for a little bit until the pandemic, I mean, until anybody who's done this over the last, let's say 18 months, recently, I mean, saw an insane return, especially the large builders, probably to the you know, the end of 2022 just the beginning part of this year there was this this period of time, like if you did a value add flip, or if you did a large construction and put it on the market at the right time. Wow. I mean, wow, the return was exceptional, except if you're us and your two projects that you had left as a developer were in Venice.

Unknown Speaker 19:27
Intuition was,

Unknown Speaker 19:31
unfortunately, probably the biggest and one packet of town that you know, especially during the project there that it's no longer as enticing as it used to be live. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 19:39
That was crazy because we had too expensive homes. We loved Venice before the pandemic because Venice is like it really appreciates design. As a developer, you have to kind of tone it down or you have to kind of you have to be special and we want it to always be special because we wanted we you know we were developers because that was the name of our job but we were designers for

Unknown Speaker 20:00
First, we were very different than most developers because we were the architect, we love design. We weren't just trying to quickly flip something, we care about the design the most. We love Venice, because we're like, okay, people appreciate design, we can go a little crazy, we can be a little bit more different, you know? And so we did, and it was great. But no, it was definitely that was that was when we're like, alright, you know, what, when even your 6% is at risk, to become negative 6%. That's, that's when you're like, alright, you know what, let's take what we learned.

Unknown Speaker 20:34
And do it for clients do for other people don't only do it as a developer, because it is I mean, it's, it was great when it's great. But it's, it's not a given, it's not a guarantee to people making no salary, and counting on profit. So it's great, but it's risky. And you look, I mean, you've you've obviously had a very long run as both real estate agent and investor and done.

Unknown Speaker 20:59
So many projects, and so many flips. And to your point, I mean, built up and, like so many other developers kept moving up market and all of that. But now as you're saying, You're you're really doing that for others, you're really designing and kind of showing them going through the process for others, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's great because we, I mean, we literally do it all we bought, I still buy

Unknown Speaker 21:20
for I don't I'm not a realtor in the sense of getting, that's not my full time. It's not my job at all. It was just about your maybe just your the disposition of your properties, especially right saving on the Commission's I was I was I was noticed early on we had an agent and she was great. But, you know, I was finding the properties. I just had to call her to get it in, which is a waste of time.

Unknown Speaker 21:41
And then I realized as we were selling that Ay ay ay ay, yes, commissions are nice. And for the amount of hours.

Unknown Speaker 21:49
It was nice money compared to the amount of hours building. And I liked seeing people's responses. I like being part of like getting the feedback.

Unknown Speaker 21:59
And I also just noticed, like, given that, being a realtor wasn't my full time job. I was kind of more

Unknown Speaker 22:06
I went more in depth on comps, and I went, you know, it's like, other agents at that time to do that they don't have that's interesting. That's a great perspective, right? That they're all They're too busy doing other things, or by that point, they're just almost cynical, but you are, you're like, This is my project or you know, you don't you don't feel the lag of what it is to be a realtor seven days a week. No, exactly. And I noticed often, realtors are very reactive, right? And you see a company Oh my God, that's terrible for trust, or oh my god, it's great for us. But then you bet if you don't go see it, you don't realize that that's because the flow was awful, or you know, it's snowing. So things like that other agents don't do because they, it's not intelligent way to divide your time. But I would so I realized I was actually a good realtor in that regard. Like, I didn't have the same experience on like, negotiating. And I know the friendships that sometimes come in handy, you know, within an office.

Unknown Speaker 23:00
But I did fine. I mostly I think our houses were nice, and this will be sold easily. So that wasn't a skill that had to be you know that. But even sometimes we would hire other agents if something didn't sell right away. And we were never blown away by their there was no magic

Unknown Speaker 23:19
thing that I was I didn't know about it's but experiences is, is great. And yeah, I have less of it. And like any, like any business, I mean, of course, you know, there are and there are great agents who put their magic touch on it and do better with the pictures and the sale and the understanding of things. But you know, if it's something you were able to step in into yourself and maximize it's, it's a wonderful way to do it, especially for developer obviously. But as we said, I mean, your your your firm now I mean your your focus strictly on the design and architecture, right?

Unknown Speaker 23:46
Yeah, well, and it's funny because we usually don't buy with clients, but we're going through the process with one client now. And it's, it's actually interesting because we're, it's a slightly difficult lot. It's, it's in a special zone, it's on a hillside and all that stuff. So

Unknown Speaker 24:04
the escrow the inspection periods, gonna be more about what can we build? What's the code? What are we allowed to build? What's the geology? And no agent has that knowledge. So it's actually it's actually I'm adding value as a realtor for them. Because I can do that while you've been growing.

Unknown Speaker 24:21
This circles all the way back to your consultant days, right? I mean, you're really every atom and and you know, you even mentioned it previously, I mean, if somebody's a client of yours is going through what it is to do a lien release to get their money back in construction, you're constantly doing that you have all this capacity, which is awesome. But that's really cool to pick up a lot like that. Right And to your point, the geology, and especially hillside Oh, man, I mean, the thought about this Oh, what about the retaining wall? Oh, what about the case on its how far down are we going to bed rock these these big questions that pop up. They're gonna need you to walk them through that for sure. And they there's also things you can't know until you own it. So how do you kind of get the best guests and

Unknown Speaker 25:00
We're such risk takers, obviously, that we're, we will take those risks, but obviously clients usually don't. But when I was I'm finding it is helpful to be an agent, sometimes for clients, even now. But even if I weren't their agent, and obviously not selling, knowing the market, like knowing what people look for, because everyone cares about resale pretty much everybody keeps that in mind, you know. And so knowing what people look for what are big, no no's, we're talking to a client the other day who they have this small house in Venice, and it's got a difficult layout, and they have a very small budget. So this needs to become more intelligent. And every single week, we go into mass just through the kitchen. I'm like, like, an end on top of it going to the mass through the kitchen, through the closet first.

Unknown Speaker 25:48
Started talking about flow.

Unknown Speaker 25:51
No, no, go nowhere. And I'm not putting my stuff. But so. So that's stuff like that. And the fact that we had to make money make a living off of this, I think is reassuring for clients, because

Unknown Speaker 26:04
architects, architects and contractors alone, have never had to think about that. Right? They they've never had to really value engineer their designs, because they had to compromise because that's fake money. And clients do most of the time. They're just like you and I right.

Unknown Speaker 26:22
So that's, that's helpful. I think that's that's also what clients like about us that we that we think that way. Don't just think, Oh, my God, great design, I'm gonna be an architect, I'm gonna put my stamp on this and walk away, because I'm not building it.

Unknown Speaker 26:38
But are you working mostly on single family housing? Are you doing any units or larger projects, mostly single family? Because design is more fun. But we are we've built a duplex for ourself, which is large, like more like townhomes. And we are, are the neighboring property likes that building so much that they are we're building a mini me now, next door, if you can hear the hammering, but that's

Unknown Speaker 27:05
good news is I don't I can't hear the hammering not interfering with you. I appreciate that. But this is LA, there's always something going on somewhere. Right?

Unknown Speaker 27:13
So So we've done I mean, we're kind of interested in smaller units. But but we're not really interested in going multi. Like, I think we got our comfort zone here. We like it's cool. We like working with clients.

Unknown Speaker 27:25
It's, it's we learn something every day, but it is comfortable.

Unknown Speaker 27:29
And it's fun pushing the design and it's less stressful financially, to not have to, like worry, well, you know, we've got income coming in, it's not our money.

Unknown Speaker 27:40
So it's cool. And we'll keep do I think we'll keep doing projects, like we're actually doing a project already for ourselves, but we're going to keep it it's our next home.

Unknown Speaker 27:49
But once that cash frees up again, we'll probably just do a development project at a time.

Unknown Speaker 27:56
It's cool, it's fun to not have to answer the clients as well. Sure, we're lucky because it's a great success, and it's in the blood and you know what to do and obviously, it's it's nice that it's out there and look, there's always going to be room to flip right? And in some respect, or or, again, maybe not that term, but to develop a project and see what's out there and turn it into something real. I mean, this again, this being probably the you know, ground zero for design architecture and certainly development Los Angeles more than any other town. I mean, this is so right

Unknown Speaker 28:27
now it's it is great, it is a design is appreciated, like less than we'd like people like beige a lot more than we would hope like, well, this appointment often.

Unknown Speaker 28:38
We put some colorful tile. So to me, I guess it's disappointing sometimes how non creative people can be. But and that's why it's nice working for clients because they like you really get to do exactly what they want, and may not be artists but doesn't matter. Like they're, you're making them really happy to creating a space for just them. That you know that they get, like, I've said this to clients like you. There's a difference between owning a home and being so happy you own a home because there's a pride and I mean, it's amazing. But then if you design it to be exactly what you want, then you wake up every day and you just like have your bathroom and that you like he lives we get happy every day from looking at your tiles that you've picked in your faucet and it's it's like a life changer. It is happiness changer.

Unknown Speaker 29:26
It's a great way to put it and you know what, we've just hit our 30 minute mark. So we're gonna end on that this has been enlightening. Awesome, greatly appreciated that you join us today. Y'all the half the design, build firm, half Shinhwa. Hopefully I said that right correctly.

Unknown Speaker 29:40
I appreciate that. Thank you. I'd love to have you back some other time but really, really appreciate you being on today. This was thanks so much, Brian.

Unknown Speaker 29:48
Good to see you as well.